Last night BoO went in and finished up the Naxx 25 we had started on Thursday. For the most part it went fairly smoothly, but it took us about 3 ½ hours to finish clearing the last three wings before Sapph and KT.
Now I could go on about the 9 healers we had during Sapph’s fight, or the fact that we wiped in Gothik because the undead side all died due to lack of heals and some DPS… but a bigger issue was raised at the end of the night.
During most of these farm raids, or any lesser than progression raid, I take on the responsibility of being loot master because 1. not a lot of people are up to the responsibility and the constant qq over gear, and 2. I don’t mind taking some stress off the officers who are leading the raid.
There have only been two or three occasions I can remember mislooting something to someone, but thank god for being able to trade it to trade it to eligible raiders now. But a question was raised at the end of the night due to a certain scene that went out of hand over the shield that KT dropped.
Now, this is a very controversial subject in my guild right now.
One of the warrior in the run was running as a DPS spec, but he did inform me his main spec was prot, so he would be rolling for prot gear.
Alright, no problem.
What was the problem is that at the end of the night, the shield off KT dropped.
Before said warrior joined the group (because he came in halfway through), the shield, if it were to drop, was going to be defaulted to Mach because he needed it as an upgrade. Mach is the GM and the progression MT. So an upgrade for him makes things easier for the rest of us for progression raids.
Remembering this as I got to the shield, I received a tell reminding me that said warrior was rolling for prot gear so I would remember when he rolled.
I was now obligated to post the shield for rolls to be fair.
Mach lost the roll. The events that ensued were not pleasant.
I tried reasoning with the warrior telling him it was the guild progression MT who needed it. But he literally proceeded to QQ because he won the roll.
Now, some of you are thinking. “Well if he won the roll he won the roll… shit happens, it’s a game.”
But others are thinking “Well… and upgrade for him makes it easier for healers to keep him alive during progression which makes it easier to also focus on keeping DPS alive while the upgrade in gear also helps Tank threat output so DPS doesn’t pull, etc”… a domino effect.
Steve, as subtly as he could, promptly left the raid, logged, and went to smoke. The friends of said warrior then began to laugh at the situation, and began to crack jokes regarding Mach’s reaction.
This is my boyfriend you’re talking about. I then proceeded to open my big mouth.
I told them they needed to look at things from his perspective. The GM who puts all of his time and effort into helping the guild and it’s members. Bending over backwards to cater to their needs, gets shit on my a new recruit who hardly even raids. Steve has spent 6-8 hours a week in Naxx 25, trying to get that shield for months… that’s literally DAYS of his life spent for nothing.
Someone then decided to speak out against me and state that if he saw it as a waste then he’s a greedy GM. (not exact words but close)
It was then that all hell broke loose in vent. Old members and officers against the new recruits who just did not understand. Said recruit who spoke out against me then stated that he could understand why Mach was so angry because he too put forth a lot of effort to help guildies, but Steve was being ridiculous over a game.
The argument ended when Blacklion promptly informed said recruit that he was NOTHING like Mach and no where near committed like our GM. The recruit then left.
The issue had turned from a low recruit getting loot over the progression MT, to the guild defending thier GM reputation that I had seemed to soil now. Something I’m going to regret doing and desperately try to repent for.
So how do you draw the line between deserving loot and whoring loot?
A GM lost a huge upgrade, one of the best shield in the game, a GM who is our 25 man Ulduar MT, a GM who puts forth all his time and effort into the guild cutting gems for those who need it, keeping the gbank filled and organized with herbs, flasks, food, catering to the members and their needs, trying to please EVERYONE because he’s trying to be a good GM.
But the new recruit warrior who doesn’t even raid won the roll.
You decide.
43 comments
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August 24, 2009 at 3:15 pm
repgrind
The only way around this would be to use different loot rules. As long as you are doing the loot by rolls, the person with the highest roll wins. Yeah, it can really suck sometimes. But you followed the rules you had in place. I have a lot more respect for someone that does that.
August 24, 2009 at 4:00 pm
D
I agree with repgrind, you had the roll system and the other warrior won the roll, end of story. The roll system does not take into account who “deserves” it more (that would be with a loot council) or who “earned” it (DKP or loot council). You did the right thing, no matter how bad you might feel for Mach.
And yours and Amber’s descriptions of Mach, personally, makes him sound like the type of guy and player who would understand the fairness of it after he calms down and thinks about it.
Plus, it is just loot – it dropped once, so it can drop again.
August 24, 2009 at 4:49 pm
kyrilean
Sorry Mika, I have to agree with the others. Since loot rules for this run dictated that the results would be determined by rolls, the other guy won. What if a pug had won?
August 24, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Mikata
I’m a very selfless person in raids. I can’t remember how many times I’ve passed loot to the benefit of someone who could use it far more often and effectivly than I… but that’s just me.
Sorry guys, maybe I’m just coming off as too harsh because I’m biased… but I can’t agree. I find what the guildie did was selfish. Someone who hardly, if ever raids, taking loot and will barely put it to use compared to someone else who the whole guild (or the raiding portion of the guild at least) could benefit from.
But like I said… maybe I’m just biased.
August 24, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Ron
I agree with everyone above. Loot rules are set at the beginning of the raid and need to be obeyed throughout. With a /random system the word ‘deserve’ goes right out the window regardless of who the person is or their contribution to the raid/guild. Look in to the stacks system I suggested a long time ago if you want to avoid the possibility of this happening again… it was suggested for this very reason and it works.
In the end this makes your guild look bad as a whole as you had the GM trying to circumvent the established loot rules for the raid and then had long term members arguing in his favor and calling your recruits “nobodies”. A big no no when you’re looking to rebuild/regrow.
August 24, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Mikata
Ron, I would just like to say that 1. Steve had nothing to do with the arguments. He was off vent when it happened, and the reason the argument between the vets and recruits happened was because THEY were MOCKING Steve and I wasn’t going to stand for it. Obviously we, as his friends, were going to defend him.
2. When you’re new to the guild, you make NO effort to mingle with the other guildies because your ‘merged’ guild is so cliqueish that when a vet even comes into the same room as you in vent everyone shuts up, and you mock your GM because you find humor in his frustrations… then yes, to me… you’re a nobody.
3. Your stack system wouldn’t have meant anything in the situation because both Steve and the guildie had nothing from the raid because a. Steve didn’t need anything but the shield, and b. the guildie came in 3/4ths of the way into the raid.
August 24, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Sephirah
Situations like this are easier resolved with clear communication in the beginning. If your GM wanted that shield and it was probably the only reason he was running beyond, yknow, making sure people didn’t gquit or whine due to lack of raiding, once the raid had been established it should have been announced that that particular piece of loot would be defaulted to him.
Once said loot dropped, and QQ ensued, that would be the time to say ‘sorry guys, its an upgrade for our progression tank and we ALREADY TOLD YOU SO’.
That being said, I know how you feel. Communication is very important, when some people really do play the game for those purple pixels instead of playing w/friends and enjoying the content.
I know it can be especially frustrating when you are emotionally linked to the person who deserves the loot…when my guild was farming 10 man Naxx, we saw zero weapons drops that my boyfriend (our GM) could equip. The priests both managed to find upgrades elsewhere, while my boyfriend was still sporting the slushy mace of titansteel doom. Then, after about three months of farming (and listening to said priests screech about how the items have SPIRIT (and no hit) ON THEM so they ARENT FOR THE DPS CLOTHIES), the mace off of KT drops sporting crit, haste, spellpower and much int (with not a drop of spirit to be seen). Both priests proceed to outroll the GM, and he gives it up to avoid drama.
Now keep in mind, both priests were taking the ‘it doesnt have hit so its mineminemine’ mentality a little too seriously, and our GM realized that just because the mace didn’t have spirit, that it wasn’t an upgrade but its little things like that that make loot issues seem vile and terribly greedy to those of us who are close to the people involved =)
August 24, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Mikata
It’s like now that I look back on it… On Thursday, we had all agreed that the shield was going to be defaulted to him, but I didn’t even think about it when the other warrior joined. Part of me feels like I screwed him out of it myself as failing to be a proper and productive loot master. Technically the loot rules were already established for said piece of gear, but because of my lapse in memory, I forgot to inform the warrior and said drama ensued.
So in all reality… it was my lack of communication and failure to remember procedure that caused all this mess. But I still can’t help but feel malice towards to warrior because yes, I am involed on a personal level, but for more than one reason because I’ve been there many times just like Mach and your boyfriend.
August 24, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Ron
When did you become so damn stubborn 🙂
Anyways, remove your personal feelings from this for a moment (because, admittedly, that’s the only valid justification you’ve given) and put yourself in the shoes of the other person…
You come in to a /random 1k raid and announce you will be rolling on prot gear. A piece of loot that you want drops. You roll and win. You then have the loot master message you asking for the gear to be passed to another member because it would be “better for the guild”.
To spell it out, you basically told the guildie that gear in his hands is a waste to the guild. “Thanks for helping us finish this off, but no spoils for you” was the message given. At that point he has the right to be offended as well.
You’ve had this happen to you sooo many times that you should easily be able to relate where the other person is coming from. As for the mocking, if anyone storms offline seemingly over a piece of loot they open themselves up to those comments; I do not see why that would be so shocking. If a pug raider dropped after something like that you guys would be giving them the same shit that was being directed at Steve. Did he deserve it? I guess that depends on who you ask but obviously calmer heads did not prevail and people left over loot.
All in all your tank may have lost a purple but it seems like you weeded out some people that don’t fit in to the mindset that your guild has. Overall, I would say that is a much larger gain than the shield.
August 24, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Mikata
I understand what you’re saying, and yes I do have strong, personal reasons towards the situation because I can say I’ve lost the same piece of loot 12 times running now, but the whole argument started because of the mocking that Steve didn’t really provoke. No, Steve didn’t ‘storm off’. He didn’t cuss and rant and rave and alt f4 to never be heard from again. He logged off his toon, and went afk to smoke. Afterwards, he actually CAME BACK TO VENT unknowing what had happened between vets and recruits.
The recuits could tell he was frustrated, and that’s where the jokes came into play saying how ‘it’s just a game’ and ‘well it’s not that big of a deal’ and ‘he’s had plenty of time to get it before now’ etc after he went to smoke. People who didn’t understand nor care of the circumstances that he has literally spents days worth of hours farming the same shit over and over. At that point it wasn’t about the shield at all. It was the moral of the point that once again… hours upon hours had been spent for something to be within grasp, to have it taken away by someone who couldn’t appreciate it for all the blood sweat and tears put into it.
August 24, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Ron
Yeah, I understand that part completely.
To end this with a laugh though I’m going to quote Ky and and call you out for once again starting a ‘shitstorm’ 🙂
August 24, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Mikata
……
I do know where you live Ron….
>_>
……..
I will kill you……
August 24, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Ron
You could never reach the top of my Ivory tower….
August 24, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Mikata
….. dork…..
xDD
August 25, 2009 at 3:29 am
Mach
Just to clarify the way things played out in my mind I’ll ad a bit to this discussion. My personal feelings on the matter aside, I want my reasons for “loggin off in a huff” to be understood. After the shield was looted to the warrior. I obviously got upset. I chose to hearth, log, and leave vent becuase I knew that if I didn’t I would say and/or do things unbecoming of a GM. I felt it was the responsible way to handle the situation. I had no idea that arguments were going on about this until I sat back down to listen to the end of them. I do not blame anyone for that. The argument would have started reguardless who said the first words. Frankly, I’m flattered that so many felt the need to stick up for me at a time when I fell victim to my own rules. Which I might add, I followed.
August 25, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Zalgosh
I was confused why they would make a big deal or make fun of you for logging off. Its understandable to get upset for losing a great upgrade, and it was the end of the raid. Sure, if you ditched mid-raid that’d be one thing, but it was a KT drop. The warrior probably should have been told that it was going to be defaulted to you beforehand, but oh well.
August 25, 2009 at 1:52 pm
kyrilean
Mikata, be careful how you use the word “moral”.
“It was the moral of the point that once again… hours upon hours had been spent for something to be within grasp, to have it taken away by someone who couldn’t appreciate it for all the blood sweat and tears put into it.”
Is that really the “moral”? I thought the moral was deserving loot? What happened was unfortunate, but still according to loot rules as I see it and went to the person that “deserved” (a.k.a. won the roll) it.
Now if the “moral” of the post is actually about not being a greedy bastard, doing what’s “right” for the guild, etc. you have a better case. The problem there is not everyone’s guaranteed to feel that Mach getting an upgrade he doesn’t need, but can still use as being “good” for the guild when others “need” it more.
As for cliques in the guild? Aw the sweet bliss of ignorance! 😛
August 25, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Mikata
Yes Ky… the point was that the warrior was a greedy bastard who didn’t “deserve” the shield at all for many MANY reasons that would take me all day to list. The point was that I feel the “right thing to do”, as loosly used a term it is, was for him to give it to Mach because of said many many reasons.
Perhaps maybe I should word my point in my posts a little more straight forward instead of try to be nice and subtle about it.
August 25, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Mach
I think there are two separate issues here. How I reacted to what happened and how everyone else did. I couldn’t help but feel how I did. Do I feel I am more deserving to receive the sheild over an alt toon who doesn’t raid and joined late in the raid, honestly. Yes I do. Not because I personally want it but because I would be using it for the guild each week to help us progress. Now that some time has passed I’ve calmed down and I can think clearly. No mistakes were made in the looting of the item. Acording to the loot rules that were used that sheild went to the right person wether I agree with it or not. Hopefully in the future we won’t find ourselves in this situation.
August 25, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Kestrel
You followed the loot rules set up for the raid. That’s Good. However, the raid lost out because the person for whom the shield is a better upgrade (the fact he’s the GM doesn’t matter a damn bit) is Bad.
That the person who DID win the roll (and the shield) comes off as a very selfish member of the guild is Very Bad.
IMO, BoO needs to examine its loot rules. A couple things come to mind right away: Raid Mains before scrubs. Main spec in the raid before Alt spec. Zero sum DKP, or something besides the RNG. But those are things for the Guild to figure out.
The other thing BoO needs to figure out is if the guy who won the shield can now tank his way out of a wet paper bag.
August 25, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Ambrosyne
@Mach – I’m terribly wounded that you commented here and have never said a peep on my blog.
😦
@Mikata – Clearly I shouldn’t have left the raid…see what happens when I let you guys go unsupervised?!
August 25, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Mikata
@Mach and Kestrel- I can definitly say that I’ve certainly learned from this whole experience, and that the next time a Naxx 25 rolls around, I’ve already started working on a different loot system that will incorporate those key factors you mentioned Kestrel regarding main raiders before casual social players, and main specs before off specs, etc to ensure that something like this doesn’t happen again.
Currently our members are going through an evaluation regarding that defines a “main raider” to a “casual social player”, and once the line is drawn that’ll make things so much easier.
@Ambro- Why would you want Mach commenting on your blog… you’ve got me instead! =D
ILU!!!
August 25, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Norm
*wanders in from Bubble’s twitter feed*
You’re both right. You followed the loot rules you set out, but also asked someone to make a sacrifice for the good of the guild. Your new recruit proved that he’s not interested in making sacrifices for the good of the guild if it might benefit him personally. That’s not necessarily a bad thing – some people and some guilds wouldn’t care – but you now know that element of his character. I personally would never take an upgrade on a non-raiding toon over someone in my own guild who could use it immediately on progression.
Let me tell you a similar story. I used to run this semi-pug naxx25. After a few months, it consolidated into a pretty steady group of folks, many of whom came every week, and wiped with us countless times while we learned. Maybe 40 or 50 though, with new people every time. We used a basic /roll, mainspec over offspec rule. Our very first KT kill took several months of work, and the first helm went to a paladin who a. rarely raided and b. was absolutely terrible. This made our regulars decide /roll wasn’t working for us anymore because people were upset that it was basically wasted gear. We went to a DKP system after that. That caused some issue with new people, but our regulars were happier with it and new people did get gear. It really helped us build solidarity and loyalty, too.
August 25, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Ambrosyne
@Mikata – I am running the next Naxx25. Yes, I, Josh aggro and all. I’m PMSing so it should be gloriously organized because if you fuck up or afk too long I WILL FUCKING END YOU.
Ahem. But you can has lootings, because I…misloot more than you. >.> Maybe we should LootCouncil for Naxx25? Fuck DKP, it’s a hassle for farm content. But with LootCouncil we can…make sure things go where useful. Though pugs might bitch.
Nnnngh. We’ll figure it out before then.
August 25, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Mikata
The system that I’m attemptiog to devise is a combination of stacks, loot council, and a RNG for last last LAST resort. I’m still working kinks, but basically it’s going to ensure that Mains get gear before alts, those who could use a bigger upgrade (A purple to replace a blue instead of a purple to replace a purple) will get upgrades first, but there won’t be any carrying because you’re limited to the amount that you can recieve. Same rules regarding 1 tier and 1 weapon per raid, and your stacks carry through the entire run. And off specs will go to an RNG because no one gives a fuck about off specs… yeah.
Like I said… I’m still working on it.
August 25, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Elleiras
Personally, I’m not a fan of the “biggest upgrade” rule. It works in a serious raiding guild with relatively low attrition, where every upgrade can be counted on to benefit progression. But in a more casual guild with the kind of merry-go-round raid roster that BoO seems to have, the “biggest upgrade” punishes those players who work on their gear outside of raids and rewards those who don’t.
My paladin has the ilevel 219 sword from Heroic ToC. Does that mean she should lose Last Laugh to the warrior who hasn’t bothered to upgrade the quest reward axe from Zul’Drak?
I understand not wanting to waste time on DKP for Naxx 25 — but maybe something simple like Suicide Kings would work? Everyone is randomly slotted into the loot list at the beginning of the raid, and newcomers who join halfway through are inserted at the bottom. When someone takes loot, they “suicide”; i.e., drop to the bottom of the list and therefore to last priority on new items.
You can carry the list through multiple resets, or even use separate lists for tier gear and “everything else.”
If it were me, I’d probably just use /random rolls with a limit of one item per wing and one tier piece per run, with certain prestiege items (such as Kel’Thuzad’s weapons) reserved for distribution via loot council. That’s assuming it’s a guild run, of course. (Any Naxx 25 PuG on my server that attempted to reserve Turning Tide, for example, would never leave Dal.)
August 25, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Zalgosh
Thats pretty much what my guild does, we’re all really nice with loot, and talk it over and it goes to who needs it the most, or who the guild needs it to go to the most.
August 25, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Mikata
I understand how the ‘biggest upgrade’ could cause issues between a guild or a pug run simply because of those who expect to be carried or have no intentions of seeing end game content getting loot over a main spec progression healer who could use it more effectivly to benefit the guild in end game content. It’s something that I’m still working on to straighten out all the flaws so that in a way, a ‘main raider’ will still come before a casual member, but without completely overshadowing them for the entire raid.
It’s probably going to be a complicated issue with a simple process I haven’t quite thought of yet, but I’m sure the rest of the officers, especially Amber, will glad throw their two cents in and we’ll eventually come to a resolution for the issue.
I expect to have it all figured by the time Thursday comes around for our next Naxx none the less.
August 25, 2009 at 6:39 pm
kyrilean
“….because if you fuck up or afk too long I WILL FUCKING END YOU.”
Remind me that I have to wash my hair that night… 😉
August 25, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Sephirah
Just be careful not to make your loot system too much of a headache to manage! In BC we started with a Suicide Kings system, but whenw e got into more serious raiding, we saw people leave for months, get to the top of the queue, come ot a random raid and take t5 shoulders from our more dedicated raiders (and then disappear again for five months), so we began adding stipulations, decay, and my god it took two hours to manage after every raid.
You really don’t need that headache, trust me. My current guild runs on /roll system with the GM/Officers able to step in and say ‘you’re being a greedy loot whore rolling on this fifth piece of loot so we are going to give this piece to so and so instead’. Because its a ten man guild and we are pretty close, it works out just fine.
August 25, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Mikata
@Ky- Psh… we all know you’re old and bald… you don’t have any hair to wash. ♥
@Sephirah- Managing loot in guilds on a specific system if like a second job that you have to work full time because you know you’re going to have those people who try to pick it apart to try to find the loopholes and get away with stuff. And if you’re pugging, or running with brand spanking guild nubcakes who don’t understand how senority in a loot system like mine works, they’ll rant, rave and pitch a fit trying to throw the favortism card around. It’s things like that I have to take into consideration.
And as for making things too complicated. I love complicated situations. I’m a natural problem solver, and I’m never satisfied until I’ve found a thourough and complete resolution to the issue.
August 25, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Ron
“I’m a natural problem solver, and I’m never satisfied until I’ve found a thourough and complete resolution to the issue.”
Then explain why you’re still a scrub. You’ve had about 20 years to fix that 😛
August 25, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Mikata
Ron…. you never cease to amaze me sometimes how you can be so nice… but such a jerk all at the same time. Amazing… how do you do it?
🙂
August 25, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Mach
30 years of practice, thats how LOL 😛
August 25, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Ron
Not quite 30… but yeah. A few more years for you youngins and you’ll have it too 🙂
August 25, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Ambrosyne
@Mikata – DKP, Loot Council…those would work with a guild run. But we know there’ll be pugs. And pugs won’t stay if they don’t think they’ll get loot.
A simplified suicide kings method actually might not be a bad idea. I don’t want things complicated because I want them to be quick. I can’t go until 2 am, and a 2nd day to wrap up would up my RL aggro. Ideally we’ll get in there and destroy things in a few hours, and I don’t want loot dragging things down too much.
@Mach 😦
August 25, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Mikata
Don’t worry Amber-chan. ^-^
I’ll have it all figured out, and I’ll run it all by you tomorrow. If it doesn’t fly, we can scrap it and go with your method.
August 26, 2009 at 2:48 pm
kyrilean
Want to simplify it?
/rw I’m Loot Master. I determine who gets what. If you don’t like it, GTFO!
😀
August 26, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Mach
GENIOUS, when do we start? 😀
August 26, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Mikata
Hahahahaha… what I wouldn’t give to be able to do that.
August 26, 2009 at 3:23 pm
kyrilean
Oh and Mach, if you really want that repair mount you could always announce a bid loot system. I seem to recall reading on someone’s blog that they were in a pug that did that. The LM auctioned off loot starting at 100g. LOL!
August 26, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Kiramaren
I suggest EPGP I find it really easy to use/keep track of, that way your regulars benefit but those that join irregularly still have a chance (smaller but in comparison to actual effort = perfect) to get loot. And a couple easy add ons and it manages its self mostly and players can download the add on to see where they land in priority. We put a decay in place so ppl couldn’t just horde their points and slap em on the table one night and clean the place out 😉 the decay encourages ppl to use it, you don’t use it you loose it! you can decide on the amount (we used %) and the timeline of the decay you want. AND seeing you pugg ppl aswell we would do a /roll as normal and if the pug got it then good for them if anymember of our guild won then it went to EPGP and we took the person that was highest on the list and that wanted it (just make sure your guildies are aware before hand).
Are the add ons ‘I think’ (i’m at work and cant check)
epgp lootmaster
epgp
Good luck! and I know where you are coming from :s oh I know /cry
August 31, 2009 at 5:43 am
Ruune
I actually quite enjoyed reading this thread – mainly cause what it seems to highlight most is the problem of guild culture clash. In my guild we have a /roll system but by culture it ends up being “you take it”, “no you take it”, “I insist” etc.
So the important drops that people have been waiting on tend to go to the people that need/deserve them. But it wouldn’t work that way if you had a bunch of people who had a different way of thinking about things and didn’t have the same loyalties and investment in the people.